By Amy Goodman
February 11, 2010
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Published by Democracy  NOW!
 The Obama administration has acknowledged it’s continuing a Bush-era  policy authorizing the killing of US citizens abroad. The confirmation  came from Director of National Intelligence Dennis Blair in  congressional testimony last week. Blair said, “Being a US citizen will  not spare an American from getting assassinated by military or  intelligence operatives overseas if the individual is working with  terrorists and planning to attack fellow Americans.” We speak to Rep.  Dennis Kucinich and blogger and attorney Glenn Greenwald.    
 Guests:
 Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-OH), last week he wrote a letter  to Attorney General Eric Holder requesting an explanation of the  Obama administration’s legal basis for the extrajudicial killing of US  citizens.
 Glenn Greenwald,  constitutional law attorney and political and legal blogger for  Salon.com. He wrote a widely circulated piece for Salon last week called  ‘Presidential  Assassinations of US Citizens’
 Transcript of interview (Watch  it here.):
  AMY GOODMAN: The Obama administration has  acknowledged it’s continuing a Bush-era policy authorizing the killing  of US citizens abroad. The confirmation came from Director of National  Intelligence Dennis Blair in congressional testimony last week.
 Blair told the House Intelligence Committee US forces can assassinate  Americans believed to be involved in terrorist activity against the  United States. Blair said, quote, “Being a US citizen will not spare an  American from getting assassinated by military or intelligence  operatives overseas if the individual is working with terrorists and  planning to attack fellow Americans.” He added, “We don’t target people  for free speech; we target them for taking action that threatens  Americans.”
 Blair’s comments came one week after the Washington Post  reported at least three US citizens are on “hit lists” maintained by the  CIA and the Joint Special Operations Command. The most well-known  target is the US-born cleric Anwar al-Awlaki, who is accused of having  ties to the failed Christmas Day airline bombing and the shooting at  Fort Hood.
 My first two guests have been among the most vocal critics of the  continued assassination policy. Democratic Congress member Dennis  Kucinich joins us from Washington, DC. Last week he wrote a letter to  Attorney General Eric Holder requesting an explanation of the Obama  administration’s legal basis for the extrajudicial killing of US  citizens. And we’re joined on the telephone by Glenn Greenwald, a  constitutional law attorney and political and legal blogger for Salon.com.  He wrote a widely circulated piece  for Salon last week called “Presidential Assassinations of US  Citizens.” 
 Let’s begin with Congress member Dennis Kucinich. Explain what you  wrote to Attorney General Holder.
 REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Well, I think it’s incumbent  upon the Attorney General to explain the basis in law for such a policy.  Our Constitution’s Fifth Amendment, our Seventh Amendment, our  Fourteenth Amendment all clearly provide legal protections for people  who are accused or who would be sentenced after having been judged to be  guilty. And what’s happened is that the Constitution is being vitiated  here. The idea that people are—have—if their life is in jeopardy,  legally have due process of law, is thrown out the window.
 And, Amy, when you consider that there are people who are claiming  there are many terrorist cells in the United States, it doesn’t take too  much of a stretch to imagine that this policy could easily be  transferred to citizens in this country. That doesn’t—that only  compounds what I think is a slow and steady detachment from core  constitutional principles. And once that happens, we have a country then  that loses its memory and its soul, with respect to being disconnected  from those core constitutional principles which are the basis of freedom  in our society.
 AMY GOODMAN: Glenn Greenwald, you’ve been writing  about this extensively. Can you talk about your major objections and  where you think this policy is going?
 GLENN GREENWALD: Well, first of all, look at the  controversies that Democrats and progressives were so vocal about during  the Bush years. They objected vehemently over the Bush administration’s  wiretapping of American citizens without any court warrants or judicial  oversight. They objected when the Bush administration put, not American  citizens, but foreign nationals into cages at Guantánamo, merely on the  say-so of the President that these people were terrorists.
 Here, you’re talking about the worst elements of those policies, but  even more extreme. You’re talking about American citizens not being  merely wiretapped by the President with no oversight, but murdered,  assassinated, killed, based solely on the unchecked say-so of the  President.
 And I think what really has to be emphasized is, look at how many  times over the past decade that the administration—both first the Bush  administration, then the Obama administration—has accused people of  being terrorists, the worst of the worst, and it turned out that they  were completely wrong. Hundreds of people who were at Guantánamo ended  up being released because there was no evidence of wrongdoing print.  Ever since the Supreme Court in 2008 granted habeas corpus  rights to detainees, thirty-three out of thirty-nine Guantánamo  detainees who brought their cases before a court were ordered released  by federal judges on the grounds that there was no evidence to justify  the accusations against them.
 So there are few things more dangerous than allowing the executive  branch to label people terrorists and treat them accordingly, and that  danger is compounded severely when you’re talking about American  citizens who have constitutional rights and talking about not merely  eavesdropping on them or imprisoning them, but actually murdering them.
 AMY GOODMAN: Glenn, you quote a 1981 executive order  signed by Ronald Reagan.
 GLENN GREENWALD: Right. Well, you know,  assassinations have a very long and sordid history in the United States,  and the reason is, is that the CIA has used assassinations as a major  weapon in its arsenal, so much so that they’ve assassinated people who  ended up being wrongly killed, who ended up causing great controversy  because it’s extrajudicial killings. And even Ronald Reagan, who engaged  in all sorts of extreme policies in Central America waging covert war,  declared political assassinations, assassinations of political leaders,  to be illegal. Now that applies only to political assassinations, not  necessarily to assassinations of people accused of terrorism, but the  principle is the same, that these kind of extrajudicial killings, which  we condemn when virtually every other country does, was so extreme, so  contrary to our values, that even Ronald Reagan issued an executive  order banning it.
 And now here’s President Obama doing it again, not with regard to  foreign nationals or to foreign leaders who we accuse of all kinds of  extremities, but United States citizens, in the case of al-Awlaki, born  and raised and educated in the United States. And it’s as severe and  extreme a policy as can be imagined.
 AMY GOODMAN: So, Congress member Dennis Kucinich,  what can you do about this in Congress?
 REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Well, Congress has the  authority, under a joint resolution, to challenge any presidential  directive. It’s not widely known, Amy, but there are at least three  states of national emergency that we’re operating under right now by  presidential declaration: one relating to 9/11, another one relating to  the war on terror, and a third one relating to Iran. You know, this idea  of being governed by an edict, of being locked into this war on terror,  poses all kinds of challenges to our Constitution. I take an oath to  defend the Constitution. And when I see in the Fifth Amendment where it  says that no one should be deprived of life, liberty or property without  due process of law, I want to know what’s the constitutional basis for  suspending this provision for anyone, even for a moment, because if this  is—if this, in any sense, can be set aside, then we are on a slippery  slope to anti-democracy.
 And I think that the reason why this is important for the Attorney  General to reflect upon is that the President and all federal officials  take an oath to defend that Constitution. This is the Constitution. If  they’re saying that the authorization for the use of military force  passed after 9/11 is the basis for this action, we should know that  they’re saying that. But a fair reading of that said it applied only to  those who were involved in 9/11, not someone who joins an organization  later on, no matter how misguided or wrongheaded that that may be, that  is seen to be a threat to the US, that someone can just say, “Well, you  know, you’re done. You’re dead.”
 You know, what about the right to be able to be told of the charges  against you? What about the right to a trial? What about the right to be  able to have—be presented by your accusers? This is—this is a dangerous  moment. And either—I see it as a constitutional crisis. And Congress  has to start stepping up to review these actions without regard to  whether it’s a Democrat or Republican administration.
 AMY GOODMAN: Do you have support among your  colleagues, Congressman Kucinich?
 REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: I just raised this issue in  the last week, and it’s been snowing here, so I’ll be speaking to my  colleagues about that when I see them. I’m here. I’m hopeful that this  week there will still be some sessions of Congress, so we can begin the  discussion.
 AMY GOODMAN: Well, thank you for making your way  into the studio today. On another issue, I wanted to ask you about the  Supreme Court decision. You ran for president. You were part of the  Democratic primary. In fact, wasn’t it true that ABC News stopped  following you when they said you hadn’t raised enough money? I wanted to  ask you about the Supreme Court decision opening the floodgates for  corporate money in politics.
 REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: We’re working on a  constitutional amendment right now, Amy, that would address this—the  core issues in not only the Citizens United case, but the Buckley  v. Valeo case. Our government right now is like an auction, where  policy is—goes to the highest bidder. And this pay-to-play environment  is destructive of any hope that people could have to have their  practical aspirations addressed by the government. You know, the idea  that Wall Street is now moving its smart money over to the Republicans  is quite instructive. The idea that health insurance interests could  raise money during the very—for members of Congress, during the very  time that legislation is before the Congress that would change the way  that they do business, these are things that reflect on the danger to  our democracy.
 And I think this Citizens United case, which gave the  corporations the ability to interfere in elections in a major way,  through their money, puts us at risk of openly having a  corporate-dominated government. Now it’s kind of a secret, I suppose, in  some places. But it’s now—you know, once Citizens United was  decided by the Supreme Court in the way it was, now it’s basically open  season on anyone who challenges these corporate interests and a free  pass for anyone who supports them. A real danger to our democratic  tradition calls out for constitutional remedies, and there are many that  are now being considered, and I’m certainly working on some.
 AMY GOODMAN: Your response, Glenn Greenwald?
 GLENN GREENWALD: Well, you know, it was interesting  because I was—I agree with Congressman Kucinich completely with regard  to the constitutional arguments he was making about the presidential  assassination program. If you look at the Fifth Amendment, it really  does say no person shall be deprived of life without due process. It  says that in clear terms. To me, the First Amendment is just as clear,  and it says Congress shall make no law abridging free speech. And as  Justice Hugo Black said, I read that to mean Congress shall make no law  abridging free speech.
 So, I certainly agree that corporate dominance of our Congress—you  know, Senator Durbin recently said the banks own the place, an  extraordinary statement for the second-highest-ranking Democrat in the  Senate to make. I think the corporate dominance of our political process  is one of the two or three greatest threats we face. But I also think  that whatever solutions we try and find for that need to be consistent  with the clear constitutional prescriptions of the First Amendment, and  allowing the government to ban or regulate corporations from speaking  out on elections, to me, seems very problematic.
 So I think there are ways around it. I think public financing of  campaigns can equalize the playing field. I think some constitutional  amendment might be viable, but I do think it’s a very difficult question  constitutionally to allow the government to start saying who can speak  about our elections and who can’t. So, I think the First Amendment needs  to be just as honored as the Fifth Amendment when we talk about these  issues.
 AMY GOODMAN: Congress member Kucinich?
 REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Well, I would agree with Mr.  Greenwald and also thank him for the three important articles he wrote  in the wake of Dana Priest writing in the Washington Post about  this assassination program.
 With respect to corporate contributions, let’s take for example  anyone who gets a contract from the government. Why should they be  permitted to plow the money they get from taxpayers back into political  contributions? Because since money is fungible, that is what would  happen. There should be restrictions there. That would go a long way to  stopping these interest groups from being able to compete for government  contracts and then turn around and rewarding those who give them money.  I mean, take, for example, the bailouts. You know, we have an—will have  an unending bailout culture, if you can have Wall Street continuing to  give money to politicians who will then vote for bailouts for them. When  does it stop?
 This is why the only remedy is constitutional. And certainly one of  the factors that has to be in there is public financing. I mean, if you  have public financing of campaigns, you have public ownership of the  political process. You have private financing of campaigns, you have  private ownership of the political process. So, again, we have to—we’re  continuing in this experiment in government to decide what kind of  government we want. Do we want government of the people? Do we want  government of the corporations? Right now, with two Supreme Court  rulings, we have moved towards the balance towards government of the  corporations. This is something that Jefferson feared, something that  Lincoln feared, something that Eisenhower warned about. And we should  find out, in this time, in 2010, whether or not we truly believe that  this Declaration of Independence and Constitution is a living testament  or whether it’s just, you know, a document gathering dust in some place  in antiquity.
 AMY GOODMAN: Very quickly, in this last minute,  Congress member Kucinich, the death of your close friend, Congress  member Murtha.
 REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: You know, when you see someone  like John Murtha, who had the capacity to listen carefully and to watch  carefully what was happening in Iraq and to come forward as he did in  2006 to change and to challenge the war, that was an important moment.  Congressman Neil Abercrombie and I spent many long discussions with John  Murtha talking to him about the war and expressing to him, in 2004,  2005, our deep concerns about the direction that the war had gone, and  John Murtha listened carefully. And that really was the measure of Mr.  Murtha.
 I have to tell you, on a personal note, I mean, despite the fact that  he and I may have had some, you know, fundamental differences of  opinion about the great mass of money that went—that goes into the  Department of Defense, he was someone—because of his openness, he was  someone who was really loved by members of Congress. And my—[no audio]
 AMY GOODMAN: We just lost Congress member Kucinich.  But we’re going to go to break, and when we come back, we’re going to  play a brief conversation I had with Congress member Murtha in 2006. It  was about the killings in Haditha. It was about the war in Iraq.  Congress member Kucinich, joining us from Ohio, and Glenn Greenwald,  joining us on the phone, constitutional law attorney and legal blogger  at Salon.com.